Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • Curly

      Replying to PMs

      Please note that you can not reply to a personal message by replying to the notification email. Recently admins have received some email responses to personal messages. This is because some members have replied to the notification email. You can not reply to a personal message via the email. What replying to the notification email does is send a copy of the original message and the reply to the admin email address. It does not send your reply to the person who sent you the message. The email notification of the personal message does request "PLEASE DO NOT REPLY DIRECTLY TO THIS EMAIL!"
    • Curly

      New Members and validating your account.

      New members registering please do not hesitate to contact our admin if you do not see a validation email within a few minutes of registering. Yahoo and some other email addresses tend to block the validation email and without this part of the process your account remains in limbo. Our admins are more than happy to help you complete the validation process should this automated system fail. We can be contacted via admin.our.place@gmail.com Please note that you may experience a delay between registering your account and validating before you are able to post as we do also manually process all registrations to keep this forum free of spam. Your account should be activated within 24 hours of you completing the validation process. Thank you.
Sign in to follow this  
6245

Anyone else find this strange?

Recommended Posts

6245

As I am thinking through this guy (referenced in previous thread), another thing that made me uncomfortable was how he would always wait for me.  He would inevitably arrive earlier than me at our meeting place, wherever that was, and then would stand outside (instead of waiting inside) and wait.  As I would drive up I could see him looking for my car.  Then he would come over to my car to meet me as I got out.  I always found this to be a little bit smothering.  I know it is not abusive per se, but does anyone else find it weird or am I overanalyzing again?  Eventually I made sure to arrive very much before him so I didn’t have to deal with it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quaddie

So, here's the thing. There's no difference between "abusive per se" and manipulative/controlling. Abuse IS control and manipulation. There doesn't need to be violence or anger to be abuse. Abuse is control. Manipulation is a form of control. So it's all abuse.

If it made you uncomfortable, then it wasn't okay. Pure and simple. Trust your instincts. If we stopped overriding our instincts and trying to rationalize other people's poor behavior toward us - things that made us uncomfortable - then we'd be a lot safer and healthier. That's what boundaries are about. Knowing and practicing what you are okay with. Learning that it's okay to not do what you aren't comfortable with. 

Abusers do not respect boundaries, so pretty much any time you feel like your boundaries are being violated, they are.

Now, there would be any number of ways to rationalize this behavior from him, but you can't really look at a single thing in a vacuum. Overall he was manipulative and controlling. Therefore, it can extend to anything that feels "off." If you felt this wasn't okay, then it wasn't. Really, that's all that matters.

One could say he might have thought he was being polite or "gallant" or something to meet you at the car or meet you outside, sort of a "protect the lady" thing or that he thought a gentleman doesn't let a lady walk alone. :-/  BUT again, it's not the single act looked at in a vacuum - it's the whole picture. He was trying to force his presence and his relationship on you in other ways. So I'd say it's part of the picture. You didn't like it. It doesn't matter if or what he thought by it. You like your space. That's perfectly okay. It made you feel uncomfortable. Listen to your gut. It's usually right.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6245
2 hours ago, Quaddie said:

So, here's the thing. There's no difference between "abusive per se" and manipulative/controlling. Abuse IS control and manipulation. There doesn't need to be violence or anger to be abuse. Abuse is control. Manipulation is a form of control. So it's all abuse.

If it made you uncomfortable, then it wasn't okay. Pure and simple. Trust your instincts. If we stopped overriding our instincts and trying to rationalize other people's poor behavior toward us - things that made us uncomfortable - then we'd be a lot safer and healthier. That's what boundaries are about. Knowing and practicing what you are okay with. Learning that it's okay to not do what you aren't comfortable with. 

Abusers do not respect boundaries, so pretty much any time you feel like your boundaries are being violated, they are.

Now, there would be any number of ways to rationalize this behavior from him, but you can't really look at a single thing in a vacuum. Overall he was manipulative and controlling. Therefore, it can extend to anything that feels "off." If you felt this wasn't okay, then it wasn't. Really, that's all that matters.

One could say he might have thought he was being polite or "gallant" or something to meet you at the car or meet you outside, sort of a "protect the lady" thing or that he thought a gentleman doesn't let a lady walk alone. :-/  BUT again, it's not the single act looked at in a vacuum - it's the whole picture. He was trying to force his presence and his relationship on you in other ways. So I'd say it's part of the picture. You didn't like it. It doesn't matter if or what he thought by it. You like your space. That's perfectly okay. It made you feel uncomfortable. Listen to your gut. It's usually right.

 

Thanks, Quaddie.  You are right.  It was not an isolated thing per se but the whole overarching pattern.  I also read, today, an article that talked about fifteen thungs he will do to push a relationship on you.  He did about twelve of them.  It definitely wasn’t healthy.  I shudder to think that I could have become involved with him, but I am also glad and proud that I did not.  Bullet proudly dodged!  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vanilli
17 hours ago, Quaddie said:

So, here's the thing. There's no difference between "abusive per se" and manipulative/controlling. Abuse IS control and manipulation. There doesn't need to be violence or anger to be abuse. Abuse is control. Manipulation is a form of control. So it's all abuse.

If it made you uncomfortable, then it wasn't okay. Pure and simple. Trust your instincts. If we stopped overriding our instincts and trying to rationalize other people's poor behavior toward us - things that made us uncomfortable - then we'd be a lot safer and healthier. That's what boundaries are about. Knowing and practicing what you are okay with. Learning that it's okay to not do what you aren't comfortable with. 

Abusers do not respect boundaries, so pretty much any time you feel like your boundaries are being violated, they are.

Now, there would be any number of ways to rationalize this behavior from him, but you can't really look at a single thing in a vacuum. Overall he was manipulative and controlling. Therefore, it can extend to anything that feels "off." If you felt this wasn't okay, then it wasn't. Really, that's all that matters.

One could say he might have thought he was being polite or "gallant" or something to meet you at the car or meet you outside, sort of a "protect the lady" thing or that he thought a gentleman doesn't let a lady walk alone. :-/  BUT again, it's not the single act looked at in a vacuum - it's the whole picture. He was trying to force his presence and his relationship on you in other ways. So I'd say it's part of the picture. You didn't like it. It doesn't matter if or what he thought by it. You like your space. That's perfectly okay. It made you feel uncomfortable. Listen to your gut. It's usually right.

 

Quaddie, I know you have said this before - that abuse is manipulation and control (and you said it to me in my other thread :)). But I'm really struggling to wrap my head around it! 

 

In addition, in general - I feel like people have such a poor understanding of abuse and manipulation. I was reading on a different forum, this woman was saying how her ex said he would "die without her" and was having a 'break down' when she wanted to leave and kept manipulating her through that. Not ONE of the replies said that this was abuse. I feel like people have no idea and just see abuse as cruelty and violence. That's how I kind of see it too... and I'm struggling to wrap my head around seeing manipulation as abuse. I guess a part of me feels like I 'deserve' it or that it is normal. It does go back to the ex I mentioned who seemed very nice but that who maniupalited me...like when I told he I didn't want to be together when he returned from his trip abroad and then he surprised me on my birthday and was like "hello love", like we were still together. I was so ANGRY in that relationship and feeling trapped but it's so hard for me to see it as abuse. 

 

I guess we all have an idea of abusers being cruel and violent. I guess they exist on a spectrum but it makes me feel CRAZY thinking whether or not he really was an abuser - I always felt like the bad one for wanting to leave and for that friendship I mentioned to you in the last post. 

 

As a side note - do you work with any abuse charities or have you ever considered being a counsellor and specialising in this area? I think you'd be bloody brilliant, you are wonderful on this forum - you bring so much wisdom and strength to everyone else - thank you for being here and being there for us. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vanilli
15 hours ago, 6245 said:

Thanks, Quaddie.  You are right.  It was not an isolated thing per se but the whole overarching pattern.  I also read, today, an article that talked about fifteen thungs he will do to push a relationship on you.  He did about twelve of them.  It definitely wasn’t healthy.  I shudder to think that I could have become involved with him, but I am also glad and proud that I did not.  Bullet proudly dodged!  

I'm sorry that you felt this 6245!! Indeed, bullet well dodged ^_^ (high-five lady!)! I had a similar guy, who actually became my boyfriend, was a bit of a miserable, suffocating nightmare being with him. Simply obligation and guilt that he stirred in me and that kept me with him - he did lots of 'gentlemanly' 'romantic' things to keep me with him/pressure me to stay or come back or not leave - I wish I had been strong enough to see that then but it was shortly after my very cruel abusive ex (guess he capitalised on my vulnerability there too!). Anyway - fake 'nice' guys are GROSS!!!!! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Fluffyflea

Manipulation is abuse pure and simple. My ex was very very covertly manipulative and the longer I'm away from him the more I see it.

It put my self esteem over than the gutter, I was a shadow of myself when I left him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6245
2 hours ago, Vanilli said:

I'm sorry that you felt this 6245!! Indeed, bullet well dodged ^_^ (high-five lady!)! I had a similar guy, who actually became my boyfriend, was a bit of a miserable, suffocating nightmare being with him. Simply obligation and guilt that he stirred in me and that kept me with him - he did lots of 'gentlemanly' 'romantic' things to keep me with him/pressure me to stay or come back or not leave - I wish I had been strong enough to see that then but it was shortly after my very cruel abusive ex (guess he capitalised on my vulnerability there too!). Anyway - fake 'nice' guys are GROSS!!!!! 

Suffocating is such a great word for this guy as well.  He would write NOVELS about himself.  Email was his primary form of communication.  Just...frieking novels.  Then he once asked if it was “okay” to send long emails because he “really missed me.”  Okay?  Send whatever you want, you don’t need my permission!  So, so strange. I have been trying to work it out in my head this week.  To be honest, when he ended it, my reaction was relief.   That should probably tell me something!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quaddie
7 hours ago, Vanilli said:

I was reading on a different forum, this woman was saying how her ex said he would "die without her" and was having a 'break down' when she wanted to leave and kept manipulating her through that. Not ONE of the replies said that this was abuse. I feel like people have no idea and just see abuse as cruelty and violence. That's how I kind of see it too... and I'm struggling to wrap my head around seeing manipulation as abuse. I guess a part of me feels like I 'deserve' it or that it is normal.

Yes, you're right - they don't have a good grasp of abuse. They are confusing it with violence/anger. Have you read, or maybe re-read, Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That? It goes into the control and manipulation aspects. Also, there are tons of other resources that help clarify that abuse is about control and manipulation that the people in this forum could be looking into. So anger and violence is only one type or facet of abuse, when there are tons.

But you're right, her ex's reaction was completely abusive. 

 

7 hours ago, Vanilli said:

I guess we all have an idea of abusers being cruel and violent. I guess they exist on a spectrum but it makes me feel CRAZY thinking whether or not he really was an abuser - I always felt like the bad one for wanting to leave and for that friendship I mentioned to you in the last post. 

I feel like it's not even truly like a spectrum, because that might be visualized as a gauge - it might imply there's a "worse" range vs. "not as bad." It's more like a color wheel. All the colors or forms of abuse. They're different, but they're all for the same purpose - control. 

Exercising personal boundaries means you have personal sovereignty over yourself. In cases like friendships, etc., you get to decide what you want and not live your life according to how it might hurt another person if you protect yourself from their harmful impact. Abusers don't respect personal boundaries, so they would try to make you feel guilty for withdrawing from something that doesn't benefit you in any way and in fact harms you. Because they're not in it for the true friendship anyway. Imagine a world where no one was allowed to do what they wanted with their own lives just because someone else might get angry about it. That's not the way most people live, and you don't "owe" anyone sharing your own personal life and time with them if you don't choose to do so. Friendship is freely given, not coerced through guilt and manipulation.

 

7 hours ago, Vanilli said:

As a side note - do you work with any abuse charities or have you ever considered being a counsellor and specialising in this area? I think you'd be bloody brilliant, you are wonderful on this forum - you bring so much wisdom and strength to everyone else - thank you for being here and being there for us. 

Aww that is so sweet! I'm working on a huge personal project that probably won't get anywhere, lol, not so much in terms of personal relationships but in other types I've experienced. I briefly considered going into it a long time ago, but it's not for me. Plus, I'm sort of a mess myself. I just do what I can, when I'm able, in places like this. ;) 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vanilli
On 6/6/2018 at 2:26 PM, 6245 said:

Suffocating is such a great word for this guy as well.  He would write NOVELS about himself.  Email was his primary form of communication.  Just...frieking novels.  Then he once asked if it was “okay” to send long emails because he “really missed me.”  Okay?  Send whatever you want, you don’t need my permission!  So, so strange. I have been trying to work it out in my head this week.  To be honest, when he ended it, my reaction was relief.   That should probably tell me something!

UGH!! So grim! Love how he 'misses you' so he's sending YOU emails about himself, surely missing someone means you want to hear more about them. So manipulative! Yeah, so was mine when I broke up with my ex - like thank god that suffocating, clingy, manipulative nightmare is gone! Just gross behaviour! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vanilli

Quaddie - sounds good! What's your project on? Good luck with it :)! Haha...aren't we all a little bit :). 

 

Love your colour wheel analogy! So true. It's really horrible that there are so many people out there like this. I guess I thought I only had one abusive boyfriend/person I was dating, but having spoken to you I realise that they are ALL abusive wankers haha. Like why do people even do that or get off on it? 

 

 

Hmm yeah, that makes sense. You're right on that front :). Why are people so manipulative? And don't care at all how other people feel? It's so odd and alien to me! I think it's hard with my ex because he always seemed so nice and is known to be nice, I feel like people would just laugh if I said he was abusive. It's hard to come to terms with but 'nice' people don't manipulate and ignore what you want and how you feel - so toxic! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
AZ-home

I think there are other red flags in your other post for sure. Personally, I see this act more like, he doesn't want to sit in a restaurant alone. Maybe he's even been stood up before and he wants to know 100% that you are coming before he walks in. I think he is trying to be polite to meet you at your car. A gentleman used to walk up to the door to pick up his date, but now we meet in public spaces and I feel this is the  nearest equivalent of that. If it bothers you, and you were still dating him, I think it could be a simple conversation to fix it. His reaction to said conversation could reveal a lot.

I think your gut was firing off warning signals and that's all you need to know. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6245
1 hour ago, AZ-home said:

I think there are other red flags in your other post for sure. Personally, I see this act more like, he doesn't want to sit in a restaurant alone. Maybe he's even been stood up before and he wants to know 100% that you are coming before he walks in. I think he is trying to be polite to meet you at your car. A gentleman used to walk up to the door to pick up his date, but now we meet in public spaces and I feel this is the  nearest equivalent of that. If it bothers you, and you were still dating him, I think it could be a simple conversation to fix it. His reaction to said conversation could reveal a lot.

I think your gut was firing off warning signals and that's all you need to know. 

Thank you for the perspective.  I probably was overreacting on this one, but I don’t think the others.  I did tell him he could wait inside, in kind of a joking way, but I didn’t expressly tell him it made me uncomfortable.  He didn’t ever do it, which is why I started arriving before him.  Part of it probably too now that I think about it was that he wanted to kiss me hello, which he knew I wouldn’t do inside.  He was an awkward kisser and the whole time we dated never made a move for a “real” kiss, I’m not talking about making out here, but he would only ever peck me on the lips, as if he were my grandfather or something.  It was also awkward and certainly didn’t inspire romance!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quaddie

This guy was such a loser (pardon the label, I hate saying it but at the same time it just seems appropos...)...  There really wasn't anything that made this a possibility. He was creepy, probably pathologically unhealthy. Just really super-weird in a not-just-fun-quirky way, but creepy and disturbing, imo.

So he'd never even really kissed you, and you didn't like his lip contact. But yet he was pushing for "relationship counseling."

You feel things left and right that you just plain didn't like about him and which made you uncomfortable - yet you were afraid (in your other post) you were letting a good guy go.

I think to really feel better about this process for you, it's going to be important to look inside yourself and truly get to the bottom of why you continued seeing him even though he made you uncomfortable and you didn't really like so much about him. What, within you, makes you so willing to overlook really unhealthy things - and then even when they're pretty outrageous, still wonder if you make a mistake to let go. That's work within you, and I think it's really important to work through and really understand and start to feel okay with practicing healthy boundaries and feel okay with honoring your own likes and dislikes. 

Books on boundaries are really good - like I always say, I like "Boundaries: Where You End and I Begin" by Anne Katherine. But for you I'd recommend strongly "The Nice Girl Syndrome" by Beverly Engel. 

Being too introspective and analytic of one's own dislikes can actually work against you, because then you start that process of "maybe I'm just being too ________" and then overriding one's instincts, likes and needs in order to keep something going that's not even really comfortable, because of... what? What's the base fear? (Not to answer that here - it's just for yourself to think about.)

Because these are the kinds of behaviors that can end up being dangerous. Not just by being super-vulnerable to abusive relationships, but even worse...   read The Nice Girl Syndrome.

Yes, your feelings of discomfort were valid and real and worth honoring. But what's going to be important is starting to feel confident enough in your own self to make these decisions and feel comfortable with them, feel you have a right to make them, feel that you don't have to be understand, forgiving, self-analytical in the face of something you just plain don't feel great about. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hoping

6245

It does sound strange to me. He may be a nervous person and has a difficult time sitting and waiting or it may be that he is trying too hard. When I read this it reminded me of my ex who was very emotionally abusive. He was a charmer and he did and said things that made me feel good. Later I found out he could or would only be charming with one person at a time. When my friend came over he would do her the same way. I would also listen to your gut. It doesn't matter if he is an abuser or not, if you are uncomfortable with him then I would consider finding someone else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6245

Thanks hoping.  We aren’t seeing each ither anymore, he broke it off with me because I refused to be exclusive with him and he was frustrated that things weren’t as serious as quickly as he wanted.  Fine with me, as I had mostly lost interest by then. 

You pegged his nervousness wxactly—he actually described himself that way to me, calling himself “a bit of a nervous person.” He said it more than once.  

He also was absolutely trying too hard.  It was such a turnoff.  He said he was “being patient” but in the same breath said he was frustrated with things.  That doesn’t seem parricularly patient, to be frustratwd that you are patient.  Lol.

There were some sexual innuendos that were uncomfortable for me as well that he would make.  Overall—bullet dodged!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
AZ-home

I know someone who is a fan of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. He said to say "thanks for all the fishes" is the equivalent to saying "goodbye forever." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6245
53 minutes ago, AZ-home said:

I know someone who is a fan of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. He said to say "thanks for all the fishes" is the equivalent to saying "goodbye forever." 

I know, I get it, I just don’t get why he would say this in a breakup email.   It seems callous and quite stupid.  Whats wrong with, “Enjoyed getting to know you, but don’t want a relationship, take care?”  Seems unnecessary to make a dumb “humorous” reference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quaddie

Some people use humor in uncomfortable situations.  But this guy was, on the whole, not a good fit for you, so it's par for the course that he'd say something in a breakup email that wouldn't sit well for you. He also might have meant it as a dig. Hard to tell, but it doesn't really matter. Either way, it's just best to not be with him.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×