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hollygolightly

Chapter Two

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hollygolightly

I am going to copy and paste some of my chapter two posts here, that are I also posted under 1.

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hollygolightly

Posted Yesterday, 05:00 PM

Shawnee, on 25 Mar 2014 - 7:57 PM, said:snapback.png

I like the passages you highlighted, Holly. They do make me hopeful, though I don't see how to get there yet!

Yeah even the ideas I like are still a process of integrating them into everyday life :)

Shawnee, on 25 Mar 2014 - 7:57 PM, said:snapback.png

But the thing that I guess really startled me was that when I was reading the actual fairy tale, it never occurred to me to question the sentence that Bluebeard had imposed upon his wife! Maybe it's just that I've read too many fairy tales, but as I was reading this and when he said she could go into any room except the one the small key opened, of course I knew she would go into it. But I also accepted without any argument that "of course" she would have to be horribly punished or even put to death for breaking the rules, that's just what happens in a fairy tale when this kind of thing happens! So .... when all the analysis started about what the room meant and why it was so critical she open it up and learn its secrets, I was quite taken aback because I had immediately been assuming if she had just obeyed the rules and not opened the door, she probably could have lived "happily ever after"!!!

Which got me wondering... why would I accept without question that she would not be allowed to go into one of the rooms of her own house??!!! And why would I ever blindly accept that being put to death would be an acceptable sentence for breaking that rule??!!! I mean, isn't that a bit excessive!!!! So I started wondering if maybe reading too many fairytales too young was actually a bad thing for me since it just "taught" me that terrible things are supposed happen when you break the rules and misbehave, and that's just a "fair" and expected outcome!

So this has certainly shaken my thinking up a bit!! :D I will come back hopefully before too long to consider more of Estes' analysis of this story. Some of it connected, but some I still am not too sure about. So it will be interesting to hear others' takes on it!

Ooh fabulous thought! You know I don't think I questioned the punishment either when reading it. I also know what you mean about you can already see it coming, it's like a horror movie and your yelling "don't go down there".

Fairy tales are interesting, I do know that the version Estes tells are much closer to the ancient versions and even the original work by the brothers Grimm. They were all more like this tale of blue beard were characters face harsh consequences for folly etc. In Cinderella the original story had the step sisters cutting of their toes in their desperation to get the glass slipper to fit.

Later versions leave out wisdom and meanings that might have been understood way back when. The fairy tales you and I might have grown up with have been stripped of some of their archetypal parts and are more one dimensional. The lost some of these elements because the archetypal elements seemed to close to pagan ideas/ magic. So instead of getting the full three dimensional picture and what the different characters mean in the story it's way watered down.

I think some of those stories growing up were lacking nutrition- so maybe we did learn not to question them. Like looking back on the little mermaid now, I would ask why did Ursula really want Ariel's voice? Did she not have enough of her own voice?

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hollygolightly

I had also been thinking about this story in terms of passivity and the predator in the unconscious (blue beard) being the thing that shakes things up. The youngest daughter is forced to grow up and her curiosity is what is helping her not blindly accept things anymore, and when you wake up and realized you are being preyed upon that really can create a catalyst for change.



In Jungian psych there is what is called the dark man archetype, and sometimes I think of blue beard as being similar. Women who have dark man dreams have them because things need to be shaken up. I don't think it is exactly the same as blue beard because it's a more helpful thing and not a predator but they achieve the same thing in the end I guess.


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hollygolightly

I found a blip on p47



" Some psychological thinkers, including Freud and Bettelheim, have interpreted episodes such as those found in the Blue beard tale as psychological punishments for women's sexual curiosity. Early in the formulation of classical psychology women'ts curiosity was given quite a negative connotation, whereas men with the same attribute were called investigative. Women were called nosy, whereas men were called inquiring. In reality, the trivialization of women's curiosity so that it seems like nothing more than irksome snooping denies women's insight, hunches, intuitions. It denies her all her senses."



The woman in the tale, like us, perhaps would not have questioned the punishment for her curiosity because of things Estes mentions above?


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hollygolightly

I can get lost in Estes description of the predator, about what she is really saying it is. As I understand it, bluebeard has two parts. The part that happens in the psychical world and the part that is more like the lurking inner critic. The predator in the psychical world could be a relationship, drug etc.



For me what really hits home is the idea of trying to stuff the wild self, the creative self, desires of self. For me it's that nice girl syndrome as well as giving in to the inner critic. And once I tell myself the truth about how I really feel or what I really want I can't shut it out " And that key, that tiny symbol of her life, suddenly will not cease its bleeding, will not cease to give the cry that something is wrong. A woman may try to hide from devastation of her life, but the bleeding, the loss of life's energy, will continue until she recognizes the predator for what it is and contains it."



I really relate to this because of how often I feel "stuck" and have many ideas for creative projects etc. yet do not seem to move forward with them, that is what I see as the internal predator, the sabotaging force in my life. And when I tell myself the truth it's like that key that won't stop bleeding. But at the same time the process of acknowledging feels so scary it can and has kept me stuck for a while as well.



The part about the brothers being that extra muscle needed, is what I think I need to feel more present and solid making a place for myself in the world. I think that masculine energy is the protector for sensitive self and it can be the part of self that gets things done.



Because of the abuse I have been working with the therapist to identify parts of self that have split and disassociated. I treat them like archetypes, some from Jung and some have personal labels. We just talked about one in particular the other day which should be the part of self that is like the woman's brothers, a protective an proactive force but mine feels very small.



" The stronger and more integrally vast the animus (think of the animus as a bridge) the more able, easily, and with style the woman manifests her ideas and her creative work in the outer world in a concrete way. A woman with a poorly developed animus has lots of ideas and thoughts but is unable to manifest them in the outer world. She always stops short of the organization or implementation of her wonderful images."



I like how Estes deals with bluebeard at the end, his corpse eaten by carrion's or sin eaters and is taken back to the goddess life death mother and reabsorbed. It's like taking all the bad things and making a really good compost. I think its helpful for me to think about it this way because judging that inner critic/predator is like judging self or hating self for making bad decisions or mistakes. And mistakes are the best compost and when something like bluebeard gets taken back into the being of the goddess it's cleansing, it's forgiveness and compassion for that self.



While the whole fairy tale seems like something you would not want to happen to you, I think Estes points out from the beginning how much a part of our life process this is. We start out naive and we don't really gain any wisdom until we have met and conquered the predator, had things shaken up, had our awakening.



Sometimes I think in my life I have woken up and other times I hear the inner critic and feel like I have to re- evaluate.

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